Monday, July 23, 2007

Plundering Western Sahara can't get Island Oil & Gas a new office


Apparently exploiting Western Sahara's resources isn't as lucrative as previously thought. From the Norwegian Support Committee for Western Sahara, here's a picture of Island Oil and Gas's container ship-like offices. It's probably pretty sweet on a road trip, but as an office it leaves something to be desired.

Island Oil and Gas became notorious in the Western Sahara after they signed an exploratory deal with Morocco to look for Western Saharan oil. Don't feel too bad for them--this might not be their main office. Still, it looks like all the occupation booty is going to Morocco's other cronies.

54 comments:

  1. punchman11:29 AM

    is this how you going to defend those 90 thousands helpless people who've been held against there will in the most inhospitable place,some of you may think are doing the noble thing,but you just prolonging there suffering @misery.for longtime they've been used @ abused by the polisario @it masters@ now by you lot ,it's really shame and you call yourselves human right activist,please give me break.you should now that the only card polisario hold is those innocent people

    ReplyDelete
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      Delete
  2. Anonymous12:44 PM

    Hi Will

    Welcome back….
    Yes. The same problem is in Mauritania now. They are producing from the Chingiti oil field only 15.000 bl /day. They expected about 90 bl/day
    FYI. Chingiti oil fields are in the border with WS. So probably this fields can be extended to WS.

    Regards
    Desertman

    To punchman

    Please don’t bother… don’t speak in the name of SAHARWIS. if ( You) the Mekhzen is really serious let give the “90 thousands” saharawis right to decide on their Land and We can see the results….
    Why Mekhzen is afraid of the truth? Mekhzen don’t care about Sahrawis at all he need only WS resources.

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  3. Welcome back to you, Desertman. I haven't seen you posting in a few weeks. Glad to see you're still around.

    Punchman, I've never been to Western Sahara or the camps. I do know, though, that no human rights group has published a report saying that the Sahrawis in Tindouf are hostages or held against their will. There are human rights abuses in the camps, yes, but nothing like you allege. And if you want to talk about Sahrawis held against their will in inhospitable places, there's a certain "Black Prison" in El Aiaun you should look into.

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  4. Laroussi6:18 PM

    is this how you going to defend those 90 thousands helpless people who've been held against there will in the most inhospitable place

    Punchman, it is an insult to human decency to to claim that the Saharawi people in the refugee camps in Algeria are held there against their will.

    The only real obstacle to their return home is the Moroccan occupation of their land.

    Since Moroccans seam unwilling to stop their propaganda about the refugees being imprisoned or sequestrated, I will repeat my comment from the other day.

    It is far easier for a Saharawi to leave the camps and travel to Algeria or Mauritania than for a Moroccan to make the same journeys (not taking into account the financial situation of the refugees).

    Making comments about the Saharawis being prisoners or sequestrated only shows that you have not been to the camps, do not know any Saharawis and show little interest in knowing them.

    Saharawis do not need visa or passports to go to Algeria or Mauritania. Moroccans do.

    If the Saharawis want to travel to Algeria they need a travel permission from the Algerian authorities, yes, but that is more an issue of red-tape than a physical barrier. If they leave for Mauritania they only need their SADR id-cards.

    Saharawis can elect another leader instead of Abdelaziz if they like (and have the balls and desire). Moroccans are forbidden according to their own constitution even to criticize the existing monarch, let alone to elect a president or a party that favors a republic.

    As a Moroccan friend of mine uses to say: "It's not the Saharawis that are sequestrated, it's us the Moroccans. We are hostages in our own country".

    When speaking about Moroccan and Western Sahara, a UN diplomat recently told me that "the Moroccans are autistic".

    In his point of view it does not matter what you tell the Moroccans about the Saharawis being oppressed or Western Sahara not being recognized as Moroccan. They simply will not listen. Not because they are mean but because they, like people suffering from autism, can not grasp such information.

    They all know that their government is lying, that information in press at the best is distorted, but nevertheless they stick to the propaganda like an old to the crutch.

    I am becoming more and more convinced that the diplomat was right.

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  5. Anonymous6:07 AM

    Laroussi I agree with you regarding the monarchy and persecution in Morocco, but I disagree with the idea that sahrawis are free to go to Algeria and Mauritania. Because the point is not just "to go" to Mauritania, what after that ? does the refugees have papers for example to be able to go to live recognized in other countries. I heard many news about Algeria fighting any U.N attempt to count the refugees in the camps or to deliver identity papers to them. So ? where is the freedom here ? or do you mean by freedom just the fact that they can walk few miles around. what about the freedom of being fully documented as a refugee and be able to go to any country as such, not only Algeria (who would go there by the way) and Mauritania.

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  6. Laroussi8:17 AM

    Anonymous: It is true that the freedom of movement for the Saharawis is somewhat limited, compared to someone living in the EU or USA.

    But, compared to any Moroccan their freedom of movement is wider and therefore it is very strange to say the least, to call the Saharawis sequestrated or say that they are "held against their will" in the refugee camps.

    SADR is recognized as a state by Mauritania, Algeria, Mali and Niger and the Saharawis living in the camps do not need visa to travel to any of these countries. Any EU or US-citizen does (as well as any Moroccan). So in that sense, the Saharawis even got a greater freedom of movement then their richer cousins over seas.

    Now, the reason why Saharawis do not have refugee passes is political and has do to with Polisario focusing on building a state. That policy can off course be questioned, and could be revoked at any Polisario congress. And why would they chose to live on the other side of the planet when they can live next door to their old house?

    Besides, most people tend to get an Algerian or Mauritanian passport if they want to travel further off than the neighboring countries.


    About counting people, that is a sensitive matter in this region. It would be beneficial to Morocco to know the exact number of the Saharawi refugees. For similar reasons Morocco does not count the Saharawis living in the occupied territories. Everyone is Moroccan, you know...

    The UNHCR and the WFP has an important role to play here. In 2004 they themselves estimated the number of Saharawi refugees in the Tindouf-region to be 158,000 people. See section 4, page 5 in their project proposal for 2004-2006.

    This number was based on "child vaccination and primary school attendance records together with the list of eligible voters" compiled by MINURSO.

    "WFP and the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) carried out a population assessment during their joint mid-term evaluation in September 2003. Using child vaccination and primary school attendance records together with the list of eligible voters compiled by the United Nations Mission for the Referendum in Western Sahara, they
    concluded that the total number of refugees was closer to 158,000".

    By some strange political whim they dropped the rations drastically to 90,000 by the end of 2004. Now they have increased them again to 125,000 rations. Still no explanation to as why...

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  7. Anonymous1:10 PM

    Hi Will

    Thank you for Welcome. I am now on/off for some days

    You are right I have been in SRC ( Saharawis Refugees Camps) many times and I don’t notice any human violence there. what I noticed there is that even the “usual” incidents between people are solved by Tribes councils without even going to POLISARIO courts. Very interested phenomena !. and its work really in the Saharawi society

    Now a lot of young Sahrawis are going aboard mostly to Spain and they are back to camps any time they want

    What I headed from Sahrawis in the occupied WS is that they have a lot of problems to get “moroccan passport” and those who are lucky ( mostly working with moroccan authority) they get passport with special numbers only for saharwis to be known not only by police….

    You can judge ..

    Sincerely
    Desertman

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  8. tangerino2:15 PM

    come on laroussi who you kidding all those innocent people who've been held in that prison of hell for too long none hold any passport how they going to travel or even apply for visa,as for the polisario is just poppet in the hand of it master who do you think is paying for those embassies that polisario claim to have ,polisario is just tool to be screwed or unscewed. as for morocco you can go and come as you please every year 2.5 million Moroccan visit the country to spend their holiday with there love ones. as for the desertman just 3 mounth ago 256 sahraoui made it to there mother land now who do you want me to believe guess ....? you guessed it, laroussi stop getting your information from weakpedia sorry I've done it again wikipedia it's been proved by historians, scientists that it's full of mistakes and it's not accurate just an advice

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  9. Tangerino,

    Where did you get your information? Do you have any references?

    -JAK

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  10. About time a certain Nerd Report author showed up.

    Tangerino, you say Moroccans are allowed to go as they please. What about the trouble authorities gave Ali Salem Tamek when he wanted to travel abroad?

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  11. Laroussi7:08 PM

    as for morocco you can go and come as you please every year 2.5 million Moroccan visit the country to spend their holiday with there love ones.

    Tangerino, you completely miss the point. If you can leave Morocco for Europe, of course you can return.

    The point is that all Moroccans need visa to visit any of their neighboring countries. Saharawis don't.

    Saharawis do not even need a passport to go to Mauritania. Moroccans need both passport and visa. You try passing the Mauritanian border with only a Moroccan id-card and you'll see what happens...

    all those innocent people who've been held in that prison of hell for too long none hold any passport how they going to travel or even apply for visa

    Apparently you have neither been to the occupied territories or the refugee camps.

    As I have said earlier people go freely to and from the camps to for example Mauritania. As Desertman, and many other people can verify, many Saharawis travel from the camps to Spain and back. Just like many Moroccans do, once they have received their visa.

    All Saharawis living in the refugee camps can get an Algerian passport if they want to go to for example Spain, or France. Getting a Mauritanian passport is easy for anyone who lives there.

    Saharawis living in the camps can visit their relatives in Mauritania without hustle. Saharawis living in the occupied territories need a visa and Moroccan passport, which, as Desterman pointed out, can be withheld by the Moroccan authorities.

    Off course the Saharawi are restricted in their freedom, but my point is that so are Moroccans. Believe it or not, but that's the way it is.

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  12. Good evening Laroussi. Moroccans who would like to travel abroad they go to the consulate of their chosen destination to apply for a visa. If the visa approved they will be able to go ...if it is denied they will not... it is all up to the consulate of the chosen country and it has no thing to do with the Moroccan authorities . Even though the Sahraouis who do not like to be Called Moroccans like Ali salem Tamek or Minatou Haidar they get Visas and they are touring Europe and both Americas!That is freedom, isn't it Laroussi? .

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  13. tangerino8:25 AM

    to will if you can't be civilised then serra la boca or shall i say mind you fingers what it's writing

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  14. What are you talking about, Tangerino?

    Awesome that you're commenting, Chagaf. I've been meaning to write about your blog. You're right that Aminatou Haidar and Ali Salem Tamek eventually got their passports, but only after intense lobbying by human rights groups. I can only imagine how difficult it is for less connected Sahrawis to travel abroad.

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  15. punchman3:38 PM

    this debate is going nowhere
    here's some fact, any agreement between polisario &morocco has has to be agreed by the both parties, so it's up to morocco to agree or disagree next the baker peace plan dead &buried.about the referendum there's no way you will know who's eligible to vote
    as for UN,human rights &international court have no credibility anymore especially after the iraq war so where does it leave the polisario
    to laroussi
    if those people in the camps can get there hands on passport none of them will stay in that hell on earth

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  16. Punchman,

    Your arguments are pretty outrageous, but the last one is particularly so. You realize that there are Palestinians who would stay in the territories since it is their home, right?

    -JAK

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  17. But Punchman, ther are Sahrawis who live or travel abroad all the times and return to the camps.

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  18. Laroussi5:13 PM

    About freedom of movement one more time:

    I have never said that Saharawis are free to move wherever they like without problems with visa, like so many other people in the world outside the USA and the EU.

    What I say is that I find it completely ridiculous that Moroccans claim Saharawis in the camps are sequestrated when they in reality have larger freedom of movement than most Moroccans in some cases.

    The Saharawis can travel to their relatives in Mauritania without passports or visa. Moroccans can't. It's nothing complicated to that. Hey even EU-citizens and Americans need visa to go to Mauritania. :-)

    Should a Saharawi in the camps, or a Moroccan citizen, like to go to the EU - well, then they face similar problems. Saharawis however have a legal right to residency in Spain. Moroccans have no similar right anywhere in the EU.

    Regarding the physical freedom of movement Saharawis can leave and return to the camps whenever they like to.

    As for punchman's final remark, if those people in the camps can get there hands on passport none of them will stay in that hell on earth.

    The problem is not getting a passport. The problem, as for most non westerners, is getting the visa.

    Personally I would not like to live in the camps, but that is mainly due to lack of good and stable Internet connections and too much heat. :-)

    Would I however have to chose between living in Morocco and living in the camps, the later alternative would win by far since to me, freedom of speech is worth quite a lot more than material matters.

    As for Aziza, I am glad that you are free in Morocco to complain about people trying to take away your identity as Moroccan with Saharawi traditions. Beer in mind though that Saharawis are not free to manifest their identity as they wish.

    Saharawis had more freedom of speach during the Spanish colonial days than they have now that they have been "brought back to the motherland". No wonder Saharawis want independence.

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  19. Laroussi6:19 PM

    Ps. Aziza, I assumed you live in Morocco. Maybe you live in Western Sahara. If so I am sorry, and I should have written that I am glad that you are free "under Moroccan rule" to express your feelings.

    My apologizes if I was mistaken of your location.

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  20. Thank you for the ''awesome'' it shows your warm exictment Will.
    Having a passport has no thing to do with being connected. Almost 1/4 of people from my town Dakhla are on vacation in Las Palmas now. What I see in my town is people with passports and they are free to travel, but when I go online I see a different stories a bias ones Will.

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  21. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  22. I am afraid you were wrong about my location. I accepted your apology Laroussi. I am actually from Dakhla and I live there as well.

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  23. This might interest you:

    http://www.upes.org/body1_eng.asp?field=sosio_eng&id=427

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  24. tangerino11:13 AM

    hello aziza
    my cousin spent 3 weeks in your city last June and since then couldn't stop talking about it he says once he arrive it blow his mind with it white sandy beaches and it charm
    i found some of it photos on this site
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=392417

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  25. Laroussi8:31 AM

    I am actually from Dakhla and I live there as well.

    Interesting, then you are one of few Moroccan settlers who are born in Western Sahara. Most of them otherwise come from "the north", as polite Saharawis would say.

    I have some Moroccan friends who, like you Aziza, were born in Western Sahara but who's family is from Morocco.

    They all deeply deplore the way the Saharawis were treated by the Moroccan authorities. "It's not about territorial integrity or nationalism. It's about fish, minerals and oil", as my friend uses to say.

    Regarding the passports, Saharawis who are not outspoken about their political sentiments would have no problems getting a passport. It's the people who are fighting openly for their recognized right to self-determination who get into trouble.

    And that is not bias information. That's the way it is. Unfortunately.

    Now, since Morocco launched it's international campaign in favor of autonomy in Western Sahara they are more sensitive to international pressure. More famous Saharawi human rights activists like Aminatou Haidar have therefore been given back their passports.

    But, Moroccan authorities still refuse giving passports to certain Saharawi human rights activists.

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  26. Laroussi8:34 AM

    Alle, your link is not working.

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  27. It works for me. Copy and paste it.

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  28. Laroussi10:51 AM

    The problem with the link seems to be that the text field in the blog is sometimes to narrow to show the whole link.

    When you chose to leave a comment, the blog page changes, the text field becomes more narrow and part of the link disappears, which makes it tricky to copy correctly. ;-)

    Anyhow, there is a new story today about the "rally" in front of the White House.

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  29. Good morning Laroussi,
    What you talking about, I am from wlad Dlaim'' Dlaimia'' wakhwali Ahel ''beirouk''!!!

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  30. You mentioned democracy and freedom Laroussi.However , the first thing you did after hearing a different Saharawi opinion is doubting who Iam!!!

    My name is ''Chagaf'' and my Mom is ment Beirouk. By saying what you said you are automatically denying '' Wadha wld Chagaf'' or '' Beirok family'' right to be Sahrawis. At least after seeing my name you should have thought of Wadha wld Chagaf who is now in the Camps protecting and taking care of women and kids. or many other Beirouks who are sacrificing their youth and time to protect people in the camps


    The difference between you and I Laroussi is that I would never judge you quickly ...I would never deny any Sahrawi..any cousins in the Camps or accuse them just because they are thinking differently. The difference between you and I is that Iam pragmatic and I know that only the autonomy will let ''Chagafs'' in camps join the other Chagaf in Dakhla, and Beirouk in camps join the other Beirouk in Lyaioun and all other ones join their families. When I dream I dream with a vision and I am not a selfish.

    All I care about every moment is how many Sahrawi kids are missing the chance to go to school, I do not care about that ''Curse'' of Oil and Gaz all that stories ...all I want is education for my people and I can do it, I will do it one day, no matter how it will take I will even open my house and teach them by myself with no paycheck . I could have stayed in Manhattan with my company get my $4000 wait for The Gas and Oil and all that crazy mass and be a selfish ...but that is just not me. Since there is still one Sahrawi who can not write or read my conscience will never rest in peace because that is my real duty that I have to accomplish.

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  31. punchman12:38 PM

    hi tangerino
    thanks for the website man it's really lovely city &me too i like wind surfing & fishing this will be my next place to visit

    to laroussi
    i sometimes think that you not even a sahraoui because you've no clue what you talking about you keep mentioning your moroccans friend come on if you have something concrete please do otherwise you just making stories i think you've been smoking the moroccan formula too much
    thanks again tangerino & keep up the good work long live morocco

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  32. Good afternoon Tangerino,
    I would like to thank you for the website. It is full of nice pics of Dakhla.
    Best regards,

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  33. Anonymous1:22 PM

    اولاد دليم عادو شلوحه ...خلات لخيام
    ياالاخت عزيزه
    هذا المسمى ماقط عاد شلوحه ولا لهم لاهي يعودو الى يوم القيامه
    صحراوين احرار ضحوا بالغالي والنفيس من اجل الصحراء حره مستقله لامغربيه لا موريتانيه ولا جزائريه وحكي طرفك
    translation:

    To Aziza:
    Oulad Dleim Tribe is an orgine from Western Sahara. have never been Morrocan , Mauritania or Algerian. they sacrified like other saharawis to see WS free and and indepandant. and it will be inshalah

    ReplyDelete
  34. Laroussi1:40 PM

    You mentioned democracy and freedom Laroussi.However , the first thing you did after hearing a different Saharawi opinion is doubting who Iam!!!

    Well, you see Aziza, freedom is also freedom of thought and to doubt. And I have never met a Saharawi who would call talks about confiscated passports as "bias". So, why should I think you were Saharawi?

    Nor would any Saharawi I ever have met speak about protests against the occupation as isolated events that only occur in "two neighborhoods in Lyoun".

    Dakhla is a much more quite town than El Ayoun, I know that, but demonstrations were brutaly repressed by Moroccan security forces there as well earlier this year.

    You are free to believe whatever you like. But I tell you, that during all my years I have never known a Saharawi who considers him or herself Moroccan.

    Now, apperently I have met one. That's fine with me. As I said, you are free to think whatever you like. Unlike for example people in Moroccan controlled territories, or other dictaturships in the world.

    I am happy for you that you can enjoy freedom in the USA. I wish however that Saharawis and Moroccans could enjoy their freedom as well.


    The difference between you and I Laroussi is that I would never judge you quickly

    As I said, I have never met a Saharawio who, independant of his or her political positions, would be unawere of the situation in Western Sahara. So, when hearing that you questioning the confiscation of passports, and read about your views of the demonstrations in El Ayoun, I assumed you were Moroccan and not Saharawi.

    I had no reason to think differently, and I am sorry if this hurt your feelings.

    The fact is that I never saw you claiming to be Saharawi in the first place. Now I have flipped through more of your blog, so I have noticed that.

    Your feelings are hurt. Sorry for that. But believe me, when someone dismisses the protests in Western Sahara or rejecting the Saharawi people's right to self-determination and independence - that hurts as well.

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  35. Laroussi1:49 PM

    Here is another "bias" report from Western Sahara. This time from CODESA. A pregnant Saharawi woman lost her baby due to abuse from Moroccan police:


    The CODESA Secretariat,
    El Aaiun, Western Saahara
    July 26, 2007.
    collectif.shrd@gmail.com

    A Sahrawi woman in El Aaiun was subjected to abortion because of torture

    The Sahrawi woman Ghlaina ment Barhah, 40 years old, was subjected to abortion because of the torture she had to endure at the judicial police center in El Aaiun, Western Sahara on July 18, 2007 during the long interrogation conducted by the police officer, Mustapha Kammour.

    Ghlaina ment Barhah accuses Mustapha Kammour of her brutalization and different kinds of ill-treatment.

    In her testimony, she alleges that her family is continuously subjected to violence by the Moroccan police that illegally broke into her house. On July 18, 2007, they arrested her and her son, Abdennasser Lemmaissi, 14 years old, who was savagely brutalized in front of her eyes. Consequently, he lost the sense of hearing (his right ear).

    Being released, she was still suffering from the traces of the torture, which led to the abortion of her one-month fetus only a few hours after her leave of the judicial police center where she spent 42 hours.

    Ghlaina says that she was beaten on sensitive parts of her body, especially the belly by the police officer Mustapha Kammour. She was obliged to stand up during the whole night, pulled by her hair, and deprived from eating, drinking and sleeping. Even worse, the police officer poured human urine on her body in a sadistic way.

    Thus, the CODESA secretariat draws attention to the serious health and psychological status of the Sahrawi woman, Ghlaina ment Barhah and her family.

    It also calls on the Moroccan authorities to look into Ghlaina's allegiance of the torture and inhuman treatment she was subjected to in the judicial police center in El Aaiun during her custody for 42 hours on July 18, 2007.

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  36. I think it's awesome that everyone's talking. I sound like a broken Group Doueh record, but dialogue, dialogue, dialogue.

    Tangerino, awesome pictures of Dakhla. It looks really pretty.

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  37. To the person who is posting under the anonymous name: I afraid this will disapoint you but Iam 25 years old and all I know as Identity and country is Morocco.
    The same as my Sahrawi traditions and style of life are part of me my Moroccan Identity is the same as well. That is all I know.

    My Dad lost his feet fighting againt Spanish...he never belonged to an Idiology all he faught for was his people and his country...he was a free man wih a free will.

    We have never been manipulated, we always embraced our culture as Sahrawis and our I dentity as Moroccans.

    If you do not agree with me, i will respect that. althought I did not appriciate the fact that you call people with names in yr Arabic text meaning a negatif discreption.

    I will never call people with names...The Human being is very valuble no matter how different is he and '' Chlouha'' ''Rwafa''''Sahrawin'' or any others deserve right to be respected. Every one of them has his own heratage and proud of it.

    You told me in Arabic ''Heki Malhaftek'' Iam not going to answer that since I am not here to disrespect or go down that road with any one let alone if that person is a cousin of mine.

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  38. You do not need to apologize Laroussi, you are my flesh and blood and even if it hurts me that you said that, I tried to considere your background and the reasons that pushed to hurt me.

    Self-determination is an absolute right to all people. What I do not support is self-determination that lead to separation.
    Best regards,

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  39. Question to Aziza: what is your feelings about a referendum on independence, like the one agreed between Polisario and Morocco in 1991? I guess you would vote no, which is absolutely your right -- but do you support the Moroccan government's refusal to hold it as planned?

    And another question about Dakhla always having been Moroccan -- what about 1975-79? If you had been four years older, would you consider yourself Mauritanian today? :-)

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  40. Hello Alle,

    What about my Grandfather''Beirouk '' and his vow or what we call ''Baiaa'' in Arabic to the Moroccan Sulatan. It happened many years before that time. Birouk paper is between the International court hands in Holland. Should I deny it?!

    Regards,

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  41. Did I mention my Dad lost his feet against the Spanish in 1959. That was Before 1975 before 1991 as well Alle.

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  42. Was that in the war with the Sahrawis and Moroccans against Spain?

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  43. Yes, it was in Buttle field against Spanish.

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  44. He lost it in the Battle field against the spanish. He is one of the few Sahrawis who do not have what we call in Sahra ''Retero''I hope I spell it right. It is a spanish retirement plan that some people benefit from it to day because they worked with spain as soldiers or helpers...he always refused that, he used to study basic medical studies during the spanish colonisation willing to become a Doctor one day but they stoped him from finishing his school because he refused to obey.

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  45. malainin6:34 PM

    chagaf aziza: is your family name the same for bairouk of west sahara on-line?

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  46. My family name is Chagaf. My Mom is ment Beirouk so he is my cousin.

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  47. malainin8:57 PM

    Thanxs. two diferent opinions but both of you very succesfull. good genes :)

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  48. aziza -- What about my Grandfather''Beirouk '' and his vow or what we call ''Baiaa'' in Arabic to the Moroccan Sulatan. It happened many years before that time. Birouk paper is between the International court hands in Holland. Should I deny it?!

    Of course you shouldn't, you're entitled to any opinion you want. But as you know, that same International Court ruled that Western Sahara has a right to self-determination. My question was whether you support that right, and think Sahrawis should decide the country's fate in a referendum as was planned in 1991? If you think so, you could of course vote 'no' to independence and 'yes' to Morocco, that's up to you -- I'm just wondering what you think about the Sahrawi people's right to self-determination, which is different from independence.

    Question -- is it the Beirouk family of Oued Noun?

    Did I mention my Dad lost his feet against the Spanish in 1959. That was Before 1975 before 1991 as well Alle.

    I'm not doubting that, and I'm sorry for your dad's injury.

    I'm just saying that Dakhla wasn't always Moroccan, which I thought you claimed in your posting. Even the government of Morocco once said Dakhla and the southern part of Western Sahara was Mauritanian, not Moroccan. When Morocco nowadays says it has sovereignty over Western Sahara because of the Madrid Agreement (1975), it ignores the fact that the Madrid Agreement says Dakhla and the entire south of Western Sahara is Mauritanian, not Moroccan, and that Mauritania ceded 'their' part of the country to the Polisario, not to Morocco, in 1979.

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  49. My respond to the questions you asked me Alle.

    Self determination is an absolute right . Every human been should be given the right to chose. In many cases we exercise our right to chose, we think we are making the abvious choice but we forget that the abvious choice is not always the right choice Alle. I am against any immature self determination that will lead to separation from Morocco. We Sahrawis most of our decisions are made with a severe tribal classification in mind.( an ignorant who says this tribal issues do not exist ) .

    Stubbornness will never solve that conflict . We need a fair resolution that will balanced the situation between sahrawis who believe in their identity as Moroccans and the one who believe in a deferent opinion. The situation is more complicated then what you can imagine it takes too many element to be understood.


    International court does not believe in ''Lbaiaa'' for them that letter is not as tangible as it supposed to be. They forget that at that time people used to conduct business, married and make all kind of argument by exchanging a simple oral vows taking Quran as a solid reference.

    If I were a decision maker I will never let my people get overwhelmed by emotions and make the wrong choice. I would see what is most logical and beneficial , discuss it with them to understand the advantages of it , and let them know that there is no stable life with no sacrifices. Every one, every part should offer sacrifice in this conflict Alle.


    Birouk main land is Ouad noun, Glaimim. But they are in Lyoun and Dakhla as well. One of Ahel Birouk biggest leader is buried in ''Tires'' Dakhla . If you believe in the independence what do you think shall Bierok family do in your scenario? ...Leave their land Ouad Noun where they had their glory time and victories and go back to Lyoun and Dakhla ?...Or will they be excluded and asked to go away and leave Lyoun and Dakhla and be told they are not Sahrawis and have no right in Lyoun and Dakhla because their main land is Gulmim? ...

    That conflict is the most complicated conflict ever . It took 31 years, a whole generation came after and they deeply believe in their Identity as Moroccan shall we just ignore them? Many people like me are neither willing to give up who they are Alle nor ask other to do so , and only the autonomy will balanced that situation.

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  50. Thanks for your answer, Aziza.

    About self-determination, we agree, except I don't see that the wishes of the majority of Sahrawis can be figured out any way except through a referendum. Saying that rulers must disregard the views of their subjects for their own good is a debatable opinion in itself, but so much the more so, since Morocco isn't the recognized ruler of Western Sahara. You might as well say that Polisario should ignore the wishes of the Sahrawi people, and force independence on them if they get the upper hand militarily. I believe that would be just as wrong as the opposite -- it certainly would be just as illegal, according to international law.

    As for people from Oued Noun, I expect they could go back and forth pretty much as they like between Morocco and an independent Western Sahara, but if for some odd reason Morocco or Western Sahara would refuse that, they should have picked a citizenship. It is no more illogical than the border between Western Sahara (or as you see it, Morocco) and Mauritania -- or just about any border in Africa. Why should it count only against Western Sahara? And why is it more important that all Beirouk family territory is included in the same country, than some other family?

    About the ICJ, they did recognize the importance of the Bey'aa. It was just that they couldn't find enough credible evidence of it in this case. They did rule that a few northern Sahrawi tribes were regularly giving allegiance to the Moroccan sultans in the period preceeding Spanish colonization, but apart from that, it was infrequent, rare and exceptional. Their final opinion was that "some but only some" tribes had a bond of sovereignty to Morocco -- I believe the Oued Noun Beirouks would be counted among them, as would a couple of Tekna tribes -- but that Western Sahara as a territory and its people, did not in any meaningful way belong to Morocco. Thus crumbled king Hassan's case in court, and that's the basis of the right to self-determination of the people of Western Sahara. (Preferably through a referendum, since mind-reading isn't much of a possibility.)

    See for yourself. All documents are available at the ICJ's website.

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  51. For aziza, seems u speak as chagaf and beiruk can stand for all the saharawi people. Moreover it surprises me, u caring about your "people" intending to throw them into a most feudal tyrany

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